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Biophilia, Neuroaesthetics and the Science of Designing Health into the Home

Does the interior of your home affect your health? For better or for worse?

Today on the Dos Marcos show, we are joined by Mike Peterson, president of Visionary Design Marketing, and Linda Kafka, co-founder of Livable Environment, who are the minds behind the Science in Design summit happening in ten locations across the U.S. starting on April 21st, 2022. 
In this episode, we’re discussing:how our industry is the curator and creator of “aesthetic experiences” and how the interior of our home has scientifically been proven to affect our overall wellness. We cover:

– How nature affects our overall well being

– Physical health benefits of good interior design and how interior designers play a vital role

– A scientific partnership study conducted by Google and John Hopkins University 

– Biophilia and neuroaesthetics

Want to attend the Science in Design Summit closest to you? Check out the exclusive seminar tour dates and locations here. 

FULL TRANSCRIPT

Mark Kinsley 

I think it’s time we get past all of the opinions about how design and technology can enhance wellness in the home. Linda Kafka and Mike Peterson are here with proven scientific underpinnings and a summit with some of the top thinkers around design and health the dose Marco show begins in 60 seconds.

Mark Quinn 

Mark, did you see Mike Peterson and Linda Kafka, our guest for today, I’ll introduce them in a second. But to see them light up when

Mark Kinsley 

I saw some smiles. I feel like there might be a story behind everybody’s story. Almost everybody. So maybe we get into that. Who knows?

Mark Quinn 

Everybody’s got one. No question. Well, guys, we’re really excited today because Mike Peterson and Linda caca both cofounders of science in design Summit, and they are in our universe, and we love it. You know, Kinsley, it’s funny, you and I, we claim to, you know, be you know, thought leaders or try to be thought leaders in terms of the sleep ecosystem, right? So the article we wrote on the phone called store the future, we talk about that. So if you are really in the business of helping human beings sleep better, then you need to, of course talk to them about their mattress, their pillows, their sheets. And then the ecosystem says think about light. Think about temperature, think about stress, think about food, think about music, think about all these things in the ecosystem. One thing that we have not really talked about is the fashion or the design the aesthetic in the master bedroom. So of course certain colours mean things, but these guys have taken it to a much different level. Mike and Linda, welcome to the galaxy’s greatest actress podcast.

Thank you for your humility,

Mark Kinsley 

you have arrived, you have arrived. When you’re a category of one like us, you can be the galaxy’s greatest, although somebody did come along and do a short series of mattress podcasts, and they said they were the universe’s greatest. So we’ll let them have that temporarily. But we’re super happy to have you here. And now I want to give a quick preview of some of the rich material we’re gonna get into number one there is science and design. We’re gonna go back in time 6000 years ago, and talk about nature. We’re going to help the interior design community understand the health benefits they bring to the home, real health benefits back then science. We’re going to talk about a partnership study done between Google and Johns Hopkins. We’re going to talk about a hospital in Singapore. And we’re going to talk about Biophilia and neuro aesthetics. And these are a lot of big words that not a lot of people in the Furniture and Mattress industry probably pay attention to very often. But we are going to get into it today because whenever I saw the science and design summit come across my stream, I reached out to Mike and as Mike, whatever you’re doing, this sings to my soul, because I think there’s so much power in design and health. And with people staying home more often than than ever before. And people ageing and moving into the future in the next chapter in their lives. They don’t want to go to nursing homes, they want to be at home. And so I think about the value of home and the value of design and what our industry can do for people. I think about it in relation to sleep, but it goes beyond that. Talk to us about your journey in bringing In the world, the science and design summit and how this all got started,

Mike Peterson 

you know, and thank you, Mark, and Mark, I appreciate being here. You know, for me, it started. Six years ago, I was a publisher of a magazine, and I was having lunch with an architect in Denver. His name’s Don Ruggles. And I’m sitting there, I’m trying to sell him a page of advertising. And all Don wanted to do was talk about beauty, nature, and design and how they actually improve health. And you know, for the first 15 minutes it, it was going right over my head. But if, ultimately the light went on, and then it shined brighter and brighter, and I’m realising Wait a minute, the world of architecture is studying how beautiful architecture actually makes us feel good. It calms us, it reassures us. And it’s a subject that needed to be brought to the world of home furnishings and design. And so I started studying. And learning, Dawn went on to write a great book called Beauty, neuroscience and architecture, which really kicked me in the button said, Mike, you got to do something with this. And so for the last five or six years, I’ve been speaking on the subject of how what we do in our industry, we’re already doing it, we’re creating aesthetic experiences. And what that does is improve health. And we can document it. Now. That’s the other nice thing. We can document it from multiple institutions. So that that’s the journey for me, it’s been about six years. And it for me, it’s just beginning.

Mark Kinsley 

And Linda, how did you get connected to this world? You and Mike are old friends a shared passion? How did this all evolve?

Linda Kafka 

Well, you know, it’s interesting, I actually come from the industry running a Design Centre in Toronto, Canada, but I actually took a different approach that Mike did. And at the Design Centre, we were educating not just the showroom manufacturers, but also the interior designers on various topics that really supported their business and the industry as a whole. And, and mine actually started, you know, not in the science of design, but it started in ageing in place living in place. Back in 2010, when we started looking at how we should improve our residential spaces, to really allow for people to live in their home, you know, for as long as they want a forever home, you might want to call it. And you know, as we talk about the ageing in place market, we recognise that a lot of people have progressive conditions and with progressive conditions requires restorative sleep. So we started talking more and more about the sleep sanctuary in the different areas in the home. And it wasn’t until actually, this was 2010. It took me nine years to meet Mike. It was in 2019. And I was at the high point furniture market, and I had, you know, gotten as much Intel and information from the market. I was getting in the car, or my husband, I were getting the car to drive back to Toronto, Canada. And I said to him, I said, I just don’t feel like I’ve, I’ve done what I’m supposed to do here. I said I want to go to one more session. And and it was a design harmony session being held in one of the showrooms at High Point. And I said, I promised him I said, I won’t be very long. I’m just gonna go check it out. And you know, I’ll take a few notes, and then I’ll get the person’s contact and I’ll leave. Well, you know, I think I was there for two hours. And he wasn’t my husband wasn’t a happy camper. But I have to tell you, it dramatically changed my life when I met Mike and really had that aha moment that everything. Regardless of how we design, our spaces all sits underneath the umbrella of wellness, and that wellness, and health and well being in the home is really evidence based design through science. And that’s what really just rolled everything out for me. So I actually have to say Thank you to Mike for being in the right place at the right time. Thank you to all these these great opportunities. But that’s how I got started in this with Mike. And here we are all these years later, launching an international summit.

Mark Kinsley 

And the summits are going to be taking place in 10 different cities starting on April 21 in South Florida, and we can give details on that. But I want to get right into some science. Okay, give us some of the science that you’re talking about. That allows somebody in the design community to go to people and say here’s proof that what we do has this type of impact on your health and wellness.

Mike Peterson 

Okay, one good example, I think an easy example to talk about is the We Are we remember, we need to remember that we are first born from nature, that we are nature as humans, and and how important that that nature is in our DNA. And so the Rusk Institute in New York a couple of years ago, decided that they were going to prescribe for 107 of their cardiac patients. A they wanted them to spend some time in a nursery and not just to walk through the nursery but to literally have these patients put their hands in the dirt and plant flowers. The result and they were monitored, though. During the whole time, and the result was the average decrease in the heart rate of five beats per minute, which amounted to about a six to 7% decrease in the usage of the heart. Now, that’s science, and essentially backing up the fact that by exposure to Biophilia exposure to nature, it takes us back to our our earthly beginnings as a as a people, and connects us with the land. And that’s just that’s an easy scientific example. By the way, in Japan, they started studying this about 35 years ago, there’s something in Japan called Shinrin. Yoku that if you if you translate that it means forest bathing. And so they actually send patients out into the forest to spend time to calm them to improve their health, instead of giving them a bottle of pills. Now, how about that?

Mark Kinsley 

Mike, I’m laughing if anybody watching the video probably saw me start to smile when you mentioned Shinrin Yoku, because a friend of mine with C three named Mark Dejardin. We’re putting putting together something called Dream camp. And he put in this document, we’re gonna do some Shinrin Yoku, and I’m like, what does that mean? What are we going to be doing? This sounds highly uncomfortable. He’s like, no nature bathing, you know, we’re going to be mountain biking. And as part of that, you get exposure to nature, which is what I do every week, multiple times a week is go out in the forest and mountain bike. And so I love that we’re able to tap into cultures and societies and communities that have been around 1000s of years. And our nascent little upstart here in North America is able to look at that and be like, okay, hold on a second, let’s put some science to something that has longevity, and not just discounted, because it’s not a bottle of pills. I love that. And I think lots of people are moving in that direction. Linda, what was the aha moment for you? You said you met Mike, was there a stat or a piece of science that you have kind of held on to and brought forth as an example of, hey, there are real metrics here.

Linda Kafka 

You know, I think the aha moment was really combined of a lot of different things, what I was hearing, and I was hearing it from the design community. And often if we listen to our customers, they will tell us things that we need to pay attention to. And I was hearing from the design centres are for the designers, interior designers talking a lot about wellness. And I was and I was, you know, wasn’t so much a statistic that because I was I was bombarded with the statistics already about the ageing population, and all of this information, but it was really more about listening to, you know, the different industries and what they were talking to. So if you were talking to interior designers, so they were using the well, you know, wellness well being, you know, and when I talked to the appliance industry, they were starting to talk about the connected home and the advantages of of what they were bringing in, and the wellness, and they were relating it more to the foods they were cooking within that with those appliances, we looked at the lighting industry and circadian lighting was was, you know, all of a sudden being talked about quite a bit. And you talk to others that perhaps were in sound integrators, it not just from the connected home, but also from the acoustics perspective. So what I was, what was happening for me was, as I was running a design centre, and attending all these different events, whether it was in United States or abroad, I was hearing all this chatter happening around wellness. And they were just when I saw Mike, it was like, you know, like that mercury, all of those little blobs of mercury coming together. And then there was Mike at the heart of this saying, science and design because not one, not one of these industries mentioned the word science, they kept going back to lighting, to wellness to health, like nobody was talking about evidence based design. And out of the words out of my Mike’s mouth came the word, you know, design harmony, and science and design. And that’s when I had the moment, I realised that’s, that’s what’s binding all of this together. And that’s what took me into this direction. And I haven’t turned back, and it’s proven to be extremely well. And as I now take that information to the design community, or to the manufacturers or to retailers, they’re now also having that aha moment. So that was that’s what it was, for me not so much a statistic.

Mark Kinsley 

So Mike, let’s,

Mark Quinn 

you know, on that note, Mike, you and I were talking all of us were talking before, a little bit about the science part in the there’s a wow moment for me, like we walk into someone else’s house, and you might go oh, that house isn’t really decorated all that great. But the reality is that we all have a different preference or style in how we decorate. And so you might be into a modern look, someone else might be into a more traditional look. But when they walk into that home, the bedroom, whatever it is, it makes them feel something right. So there’s an intangible to that. Oh, So that’s kind of like that’s not science. But Mike, you are talking to us about Milan. And kind of some of the the things that happen in the Milan study and that for me, I’m like, Oh, wow, like, you know, technology catching up to some of the emotion and actually proving out some of the ideas and the concepts that you guys are talking about. Can you tell us

Mike Peterson 

a little bit Milan study, it was also a trigger for me. It really opened my eyes to what technology could do to help our industry and not just designers. I’m talking about helping furniture retailers, helping manufacturers. It was Milan Design Week, it was a 2019. And Google technology, Johns Hopkins University and ready made architecture out of New York got together and created, they actually built three different rooms. Each room had a different aesthetic experience to it. And now because of technology, Google was able to put a wearable wristband on all of the attendees, the wristband was capable of measuring, all cardio, you know, blood pressure, heart rate. And also, the wristband could measure GSR, which is galvanic skin response, which is a measuring measuring of the arousal factor that you that comes off of your skin. So, all attendees wore these wristbands. And at the end of the tour, Johns Hopkins was able to read for that attendee, which room which aesthetic experience gave them the most positive cardio and bio reaction. That was fascinating, because what it looked at what it does for our industry. Now, if we can get our hands on this kind of technology, and we put a wristband on a client walking through on a customer walking through a furniture store, or a designer, putting a wristband on their client and showing them 50 different images, all of a sudden design and furniture design, have a roadmap just because of technology. That’s where we’re going. And that’s what’s so exciting about the concept of science in design.

Mark Kinsley 

And I can only imagine the power of putting something like that on a customer or client walking through a store. And helping from a merchandising decision making standpoint, you’re gonna have somebody that clearly gravitates towards certain products, you’re going to know the amount of time somebody spends on top on products, you’re going to understand what their physical responses are, that you can’t measure as a human being, but technology can and all of a sudden, now you can make more informed decisions, you know, a retailer could go back to a manufacturer or supplier product maker and say, Hey, this is what we’re seeing time to take another swing at it, because whatever you sold us is not working or this is working really well let’s over index on some of these products. So I love that. And I think even that technology, I think is going to move beyond a risk ban, I think it’s going to get into a lot of AI and the usage of other technology put into that environment that will be non invasive.

Mike Peterson 

Well, let me let me give you one other example then, because I’ve just learned in the last year and a half about something that three M has been doing for a couple of years. It’s called VAs technology, V A ‘s visual attention software. And they’re actually going to be speaking at some of our summits. And essentially, this software has the capability of predicting where the eye the brain, actually, because the eye is merely a tool of the brain, where the eye will go upon seeing an image. And so you can what’s exciting about this is that if you were to take a picture of your storefront and run that image through the vast software, it would tell you what part of that storefront lights up and is most attractive to the subconscious mind. And because 95% I’m not getting too deep into the weeds here, but 95% of our brain is used for the subconscious mind, only 5% for the conscious. So think of the instant reactions that we’ve had as a species over over millions of years fight or flight, that kind of thing. It’s instantaneous. And so when you walk up to a storefront, and you have an immediate reaction, and that’s what this vast technology can actually provide for you.

Mark Kinsley 

It let’s keep going with that. Let’s keep going with that for a minute, Mike because you talk about history and Nature and Science. And I remember you said something to the effect of 6000 years ago science was nature based you had tree canopies in the natural environment. And one of the directions you want to encourage people to look into study is history is our evolutionary psychology is the tree canopies of old take us into that what does that mean? Help us understand it.

Mike Peterson 

All right. The one of the best sources for this is Susan examen. She’s the Executive Director of the International arts and mind lab at Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine. She’s got a few more words under Title two, but I just don’t remember them all. See and And she talks about how it aesthetic experiences are hardwired. In our DNA, they’re encoded in our DNA, because over the 3.6 billion years of our evolutionary inheritance, we can’t, we just can’t deny the fact that we are the sum in the aggregate of what we have been over those billions of years. And we forget that today, because we’re building buildings, we’re getting involved in sales promotions, we’re doing all the things that are, frankly unnatural to us as a people. But if we remember, if we go back to the fact that 6000 years ago, there were no buildings, there were not they weren’t even communities. You know, we were just individuals, and our source of inspiration was the land around us. And all the images that we saw, yes, the tree canopies, the, the riverbed. All of those things are in our DNA right now. And every one of the viewers or listeners to this this podcast, is that all of that is in their DNA as well. So that’s what we have to remember. And that’s what we have to market to that type of person.

Mark Kinsley 

Linda, bring it home for us, take us into the bedroom. Can you tell I want to go into the lender to take take some of this evolutionary psychology take some of these findings in this data in these anecdotes, and the science, the science and design, how do we how do we put this into the bedroom in a way that maybe some people don’t understand or that’s unexpected, because like we pay attention a little bit to light and sound and smell and some of the aesthetics and blackout blinds, we talk about all these different things, but how are you thinking about application within the bedroom and that sleep sanctuary?

Linda Kafka 

Well, it’s interesting, because as we started this conversation, Mark, the other Mark had, you know, said the same thing. But also I heard, I think I heard him say that, that beauty isn’t part of the science, but it actually is, and and you know, it’s a very important part of that, why we feel the way we feel. So I want to take a step back, you know, you’ll walk into a space. And regardless of the style, you’ll either feel comfortable in that space with you know, or you’ll feel you’ll, you’ll be in that fight or flight type of mode and want to get out of that space. So, you know, it really is important to look at how we are designing and from a personalised perspective as opposed to a trend perspective or a colour of the year. So if colour of the year is, you know, grey, I’m just gonna throw that out there because it happens to still be in Canada for all these years. You know, designing your space without, it doesn’t necessarily lend itself well to to you and your health and the health benefits that it can deliver, you really have to focus on the individual and that space, but relating it to it. It’s all part and parcel of everything. So we’re just like we haven’t even scratched the surface part of science and design talks about biophilic design biomimicry, we look at lighting, we look at the acoustics in that space, we look at the temperature of that space, it’s all evidence based design, I don’t want your listeners to think it’s only about the look or the shape of of what’s in that space. Now what I can tell you is just that your industry is already in this, they just don’t perhaps don’t realise it. And they’re not marketing themselves as delivering the health benefits that they potentially could be. So when you look at smart bed responsive technology, you’re all familiar with these, you know, you know mattresses and products in the bedroom that actually can measure your, you know, different different biometrics, you know, everything from helping to alleviate snoring to getting a better rest. It’s all there. It’s just how your marketing and presenting it out to the audience. And I think that’s what we’re the biggest thing that we’re really missing is this when I walked through shows, whether it was a kitchen or bath show in in cannabis or the International Building show whether I walked through high point or any of the others, I often see retailers or I should say manufacturers in the showrooms and even retailers will do this too is it’s like you know, they don’t talk about the health benefits that that space can provide to that individual they talk about you know, we’ve got the latest styles, latest colour latest trends, we’ve got, you know, eucalyptus lavender infused into our mattresses, but it goes beyond that. And so when you’re looking at that space, you got to look at it as not just one element, you got to look at all of them combined, because all of those elements combined actually speak to who we are as human beings. So if you look at the lighting, the you know, the the sound in that space, what what the mattresses can do for us now, that’s whole whole smart bed technology. It’s it’s all that together that really makes that place the sleep sanctuary. And what I am finding is is that designers and some custom home builders are actually marketing and branding themselves as creating sleep sanctuaries for their customers or their clients. It’s starting to happen out there but I don’t see the reach Hello, Sir, I don’t see the manufacturers jumping onto that as quickly as I see the design community. I hope that answered your question because it’s not just about one definitive thing that you should do in your space. It’s, it’s multiple things that need to be done. And then the bedding, the mattress industry plays an extremely big role in this.

Mark Kinsley 

And I think I’m gonna get into, I think it did get into kind of like the clouds, but let’s bring it into the dirt a little bit, because I understand what you’re saying, you know, a comprehensive evaluation of your sleep sanctuary, for example, or your living room. But whenever you you’re trying to, like take these ideas in science, and get them applied at the personal level, who’s qualified to do that? And what science are they? Are they able to present to the consumer or the client to help them understand that this is evidence based? Where are they getting that information? Like if somebody has a designer listening right now, or working in a in a design driven environment in a furniture mattress store? Where do they get the information? How do they apply it?

Mike Peterson 

How do they like that’s exactly? That’s exactly why. After thinking about this, for the last two years, Linda and I are putting together this series of seminars and summits around the country, because we will be bringing in scholars and academics from Boston architectural College, we’re going to bring in Don Ruggles, Johns Hopkins University, vas, three M software, speakers to help educate those designers to give them the documentation that they need to be and the words just merely the word words to be able to use with their clients. If you had used the word neuro aesthetics, five years ago, people would have scratched their head and said, What, but that’s exactly what is happening. There’s a convergence of science and design, neuroscience, and aesthetics have become neuro aesthetics, and they’re there already in our industry, that word isn’t going anywhere, and designers and furniture retailers need to study up, they need to look, you know, they need to come out to the summits, if they can, if it’s at all possible, because we’re gonna have six different seminars per Summit. And, and these scholars will be helping the audience, the attendees, learn how to use the knowledge that that we’ll be giving them.

Linda Kafka 

I want to add to that. Earlier, I wanted to add to that, you know, there are so many sources out there and so much information out there, you know, as a designer, or a retailer or manufacturer to spend time looking for all of that, it just becomes overwhelming with the amount of information. So what we’ve done is we’ve really narrowed it down and focused in on on our segment of what’s relevant. You’re not we’re not short of this information. It’s, you know, where do you find it. And so the other thing, the other challenge, too, is this, if you’re speaking to somebody that comes from the academia, science and sector, they tend to, as Mike always says, speaking six syllable, six syllable words, it becomes very challenging to, you know, you tend to lose your interest really quickly, because you can’t quite grasp what they’re saying. So we’re acting as a bridge between the science industry and the design industry. And you know, and really helping to, you know, help establish that lexicon or that vocabulary that we need to be using in this industry. And, and sharing these resources. So that you can get direct evidence based analytics and information that you can then use. And I just want to say, Mike, Mike can speak to this more is take a look at the big retailers and what they’re doing, whether it’s Google et Cie, Apple, and the dollars that they’ve spent in the commercial sector, and in the end, the retail sector, and they’re, and they’re basing it all on science and design.

That’s an interesting point. And

Mark Quinn 

so Linda, earlier, you you had mentioned that design or my comment that design wasn’t part of the science. Now, not what I meant. It’s just not it’s not on our radar. Right. And I think this Yeah. And so I think you’re right, it is absolutely part of the science. And it’s so great that you guys are bringing that part out here. So to Mark’s point a minute ago, though, he said, let’s, let’s bring it into the dirt. Can you talk to us a little bit of the practical application, right, so people are listening to this now? And like sleep honestly, we had Dr. Michael Bruce on her show. And we’re saying Hey, Michael, grade human beings and their knowledge of sleep, sleep cycles, caffeine HalfLife, all these things? Like how much do we know? And he was like, it’s an app, you know, people don’t get their sleep very well. You know, I bet if we were to grade the industry on their understanding of, of neuro aesthetics, it would be enough right like, so there’s a big education piece to this. So I love that you’re doing the summit. But then can you give us an example of people that are doing something with this science I pray practical application in their business where it’s actually, you know, bringing them along and helping them achieve a different level of talk to us a little bit about that a

Mike Peterson 

year and a half ago, I did a seminar on this overall subject, and one of the groups that were attending the seminar was at a design firm in Charlotte, the design firms called Clark and Clark interiors. And they called me a week later and said, Look, you know, I love all this knowledge, we instinctively are doing a lot of what you’re talking about. And by the way, we find that to be the case a lot. But they didn’t know how to put it together. So they asked me to, if I could help them, develop a website, develop an ad, campaign, and etc. And so they were deep into via biophilia, using a lot of natural light, using a lot of prospect and refuge concepts that are part of biophilia. And so it was about a year ago, we put together a brand new website, where they took ownership of the subject, they moved from just dancing around with it, and not knowing that they were specialists in this subject, but they actually took ownership. So we created a new website, new and all new collateral, a new ad campaign that brought in the subject of fractals, and biophilic textures, and then showed how they were being used in the design of the home. And so that’s one example of for you. One of the things I love,

Linda Kafka 

if we, if we look at the interior design industry alone, you’ve got over 42,000 interior designers that are operating in the United States, you know, in Canada, we look at you know, you know, how do we niche and and really stand apart in the in the US, we call it niches, the riches are in the niches, how are we niching into an area that that is going to set us apart from our competition. And what we’re seeing is designers, interior designers, and I’ve spoken to them firsthand that they’ve actually said, I attended, you know, a design harmony presentation by Mike Peterson. And it changed my business or, you know, or they came to my other summit, the livable design Summit, and listen to Don Ruggles or an Sussman or Mike Peterson speaking about this. And they they immediately turn their business around, only to find out that they ended up you know, really separating themselves from their competition, but increasing their demand, you know, from from business. But here’s the here’s the other thing, too, a lot of these designers are able to charge more for this, because this is not something you can go on to Wayfair. And buy. This is knowledge that really sets you apart from your, from your customers, and doesn’t matter if you’re in retail, or if you’re an interior design, it’s knowledge that really sets you apart from the rest, it puts you on a different level. And we’re seeing it happening everywhere. You know, it’s starting to emerge from right across Canada, designers that are jumping onto this, we’re seeing you know, retailers are starting to, you know, look at at this and differentiate themselves. And I think that’s what one of the biggest moot movements that we’re seeing in a very short time is, is that when people get that the AHA, there, they’re not just saying, Hey, that was great information, putting it off to the side, they’re actually acting on it, they’re owning it. Mind well designed is a great example of a designer in Toronto, that actually changed up her whole business and mentioned the fact that she does circadian lighting, she is a specialist neuro aesthetics and so on. She’s leveraging all of this and all the Intel and all the knowledge that she’s gained plus, using, you know, organisations, aligning herself with organisations like John Hopkins and mayo and all of their, their research to validate what she’s saying to her clients. And I think that’s what’s really important right now is using that aligning yourself with that.

Mark Kinsley 

And I think Linda, this is such a key point. Health and wellness is the most important topic on the planet right now. We talked about it in the sleep space, we talked about connecting the life changing benefits of the mattress to health and wellness because COVID changed everybody’s perspective on the home and on health and wellness or at least crystallised that or fast track that maybe 10 years into the future. So I love the idea of of an interior design community that’s able to come into a home something that’s become more important than ever, and have evidence to help people understand this is not just me making something look pretty. There’s real credibility behind this. And here’s the thing I want everybody to remember and attach themselves to. People want to be taken somewhere. They want to be taken somewhere on a journey. And they want a guide that can help them and a guide that has credibility, a guide who’s navigated these turbulent waters before so if you’re in the design community, or you’re in the sleep space, remember you can help them with transformation. And I love whenever you can create transformation that’s evidence based because there are so many opinions out there and there is so much misinformation so Have you develop that playbook and that lexicon and you can get your team up to speed on how to use that and how to apply it? I think there’s huge magic there. And I’m gonna just let you kind of give us a rundown real quickly before we wrap up because this was so much fun that we kept going. But, Mike, why don’t you take us through? Real quickly you’re doing 10 summits. The first one is April 21 2022, in South Florida, and this is how people can get connected to what you’re doing and really kind of bring this into their own environment. Just take us through the summit.

Mike Peterson 

Yeah, we you know, Linda and I are putting together a series of summits around the country. We’re starting it’s really an international tour of design centres. It starts at the South Florida design Park in on April 21. In Florida. It then goes to Chicago Merchandise Mart a week later than to Atlanta up to Toronto out to San Francisco LA. Oh gosh, LA and then Boston and then Minneapolis. Then the Las Vegas market in July we’ll be there with the science and design summit and we end the year in October in New York. And the way to get in touch with us on this if you’re interested is you can email me at Mike at visionary dem.com or Linda Linda which what email should we use for you,

Linda Kafka 

Linda? livable? canada.com livable spelt the American way so it’s Linda at livable canada.com

Mark Kinsley 

ex and this is what we’ll do is links in the show notes so if you go to fam dot news and you find this episode scroll down and it whether it’s on fam dot news or social will have links to your website and ways to get in touch with you. Thank you so much for dropping some some science around design on us today. super valuable can’t wait to learn more myself and help our retailers and help our industry apply this in the sleep space the furniture space and beyond.

Linda Kafka 

Our pleasure thank you thank you

Mark Quinn 

no doubt you guys keep doing what you’re doing the the knowledge the information is fantastic. Just a reminder for everyone that was listening to this. That one of the big takeaways for me is what’s it’s not just a warehousing it’s a health thing. Mark said it. Mike and Linda both alluded to it. It’s a it’s a it’s a health thing. It’s so much bigger than just a pretty living room. It’s something that can impact your life. So again, Mike and Linda thank you to you guys if you’re listening now this is a campfire. share this episode with people that you might find it interesting and keep bringing your friends to go to where you listen to our shows Spotify, iTunes, and give us review we appreciate that we want to keep growing the fam and your cubic part of the fam Mike and Linda Congratulations on your first mattress podcast and now being Thank you very much. We appreciate you guys.

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